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Breaking The Silence Online

@manwithabishoppair said in #378:
> just use another account
> you would have to ip-ban people from viewing certain profiles but even thats not permanent

You do not understand my idea. I just don not want to see the nickname of this person while I am playing when I blocked this person before. There are people showing up again and again. Just like real world stalker.
@Bogenko said in #382:
> You do not understand my idea. I just don not want to see the nickname of this person while I am playing when I blocked this person before. There are people showing up again and again. Just like real world stalker.

thats probably an idea. obv you would have to do it again if they switch accounts. although the creator of this block might not like it bc it falls in the category of "ignoring" bc it doesnt solve the root of the problem.
But this is a realistic solution in contrast to trying to change the whole lichess community
I tried to send this to someone at Lichess and it said I couldn't report myself, hilarious! Im horrid with tech and dont have patience or time to figure it out.

I understand and absolutely feel horrible with ANYONE bullying ANYONE, it's not right. Fortunately, I have not had any such experience, as a woman. There were a couple of jerks, but it wasn't sex related, as in male or female. I am sure it goes on, but for the most part it has been a great experience on here at Lichess, so thank you. I just read an article about this woman who was treated horrible on here, that is in(un)excusable(English is my 1st language and only:) I trust that Lichess took care of it accordingly. A small minority of humans are morons, well maybe more, regardless, just wanted to say thanks.

And I love the courage of you QueenRosieMary! Thank you above all.
> I still find it a bit odd in 2023 that there is such a large gender-linked participation gap in a sport.

women. and. men. are. not. the. same.

men are on average more interested in certain things (including board games). women are on average more interested in certain things (including reading books). there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
@szhzs said in #385:
> men are on average more interested in certain things (including board games). women are on average more interested in certain things (including reading books). there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Well, *On average*, men are more 'interested' in harassing women and there is something wrong with that.

I guess you meant this difference is biological/innate and not social/learned. There is no evidence to support that claim. Especially not in the ratio in chess.

Also, I'm pretty sure Women are interested in getting good jobs and fair pay, but that doesn't happen either, on average. What explaination do you have for that?
> I guess you meant this difference is biological/innate and not social/learned. There is no evidence to support that claim. Especially not in the ratio in chess.

there is plenty of research on gender differences and personality. here is a study on interest in things vs. people: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19883140/
it partially explains gender differences in many areas, including chess.

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> Well, *On average*, men are more 'interested' in harassing women and there is something wrong with that.

whataboutism / irrelevant

> Also, I'm pretty sure Women are interested in getting good jobs and fair pay, but that doesn't happen either, on average. What explaination do you have for that?

whatboutism / irrelevant

---

harassment is bad of course and it's good to raise awareness of it. i was merely commenting on the author's statement that there's something wrong with the fact that more men play chess. i believe there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
@szhzs

The article you linked talks about One standard deviation at most.
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Edit : Also, I didn't see the word "chess" anywhere on the article. the research function did not either. Can you point me to the place where this is adressed?
--
I only skimmed it, so I would have to check if the methodology includes the fact that people are already impregnated from patriarchat when they decide what interests they have. But even without that, one standard deviation in interest doesn't even begin to explain the gap in participation.
Don't hesitate to point me to particular parts of the article if I missed something.

My two comments on harassment and job equality are not irrelevant or whataboutism. Stastistically, men harass women more and that was the subject of the original blog post (I know, it's 40 pages ago). I presented it the same way as you, jumping from the statistical to an explaination about interest. Which is not sound. but I wanted to illustrate how your claims were also not sound. That was probably not the best and most efficient way to do so, I'll agree to that.

The one about the pay gap and job inequality was here to illustrate that interest is not such a relevant factor in explaining the innequalities men and women face.
Clearly, there are a lot of innequalities that women face that are due to external factors instead of internal ones. Like the getting harassed, getting worse jobs for worse pay, etc. It seems reasomable to assume that the effects leading to that can also lead to disparity in representation in chess. After all, it's really similar. So it is reasonable to favor the structural discrimination as an explaination for the disparity in chess representation, that's Ockams razor.

So the biological argument is not needed (the social one has precedence) and is also not sufficient to explain what we see.

Also, this is a subject that is really prone to attribution biases (like "she shouldn't have worn a skinni skirt" puting the blame on the person when the problem is external) so one has to be really pay attention when attributing reasons for different symptoms of gender innequalities.

So in short : Yes men and women -and other sex and genders- are on some level different. But not enough to explain the differences in how society treats us differently, and certainly not enough to explain the participation gap in chess.

Which makes it a problem to be adressed. What is "wrong" is not that more men play chess per se, but rather that society discourages women to play chess, through different mechanism, including the amount of harassment they have to endure.

I hope with more details my point comes better across.
@CrniTomislav said in #388:
> lmao at the amount of censorship needed for this toxicity to persist

Well that was partly due to you, and me.

You wrote something pretty awful and I cracked and responded :(

It was our toxicity,no one elses

The " censorship" as you cal it was appropriate.

Of both of us !

I apologise to QM for that

I will not be responding to anything further you say and will have a couple of days rest from here

It is very hard "biting ones tongue" constantly
@TurtleMat said in #350:
> The point is that hopefully, eventually, we won't need to have this discussion anymore. But this will only be the case when no one's health and life is in danger. And that won't happen before people stop denying facts and start to listen to numbers and people. And that can only happen by having this discussion over and over again. I don't like it either. But it's much better than turning a blind eye.

Thanks for this wonderful comment. I wanted to say something similar but wasn't able to organize my thoughts properly. But you nailed it. Completely agree, very well-said. The whole comment actually, I just quoted the first part to make it concise :)